Talk:Crocus City Hall attack

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'Contract Killing'[edit]

The Guardian 'article' (actually liveblog) does not say that it was a contract killing, it only relays that the Soviet/Russian official propaganda mouthpiece TASS (obviously the completely opposite of anything approaching a reliable source) says it is. This should be removed from the infobox immediately as it is spreading Kremlin propaganda and disinformation. 2404:4408:6A65:E000:309A:3E46:4B64:391D (talk) 20:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some Russian language sources do say that Tajiks (who have been arrested) were paid to do their job. This is not consistent with the terrorist nature of the attack, but I would rather keep it. My very best wishes (talk) 00:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These motives are not mutually exclusive because they could've been hired by ISIS-K as its pawns. Therefore it's 'Islamic extremism' for those who organized the attack and 'contract killing' for the actual perpetrators. 93.81.37.232 (talk) 05:42, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, indeed. The problem is actually different. None of these 4 guys had military experience, while the attackers on videos behaved as special forces, quickly moving in pairs, skillfully shooting at people without any hesitation, etc., as a number of commenters noted. My very best wishes (talk) 15:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is speculation. We don't use speculation on Wikipedia. BeŻet (talk) 11:34, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are at least two videos in which Tajiks admit to committing murders for money. If don't like the Guardian, I can find plenty of other media outlets to back it up Ucraniano2 (talk) 08:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Similar examples contemporaries.
For example . Target "Kogalym- Air". Above the Sinai Peninsula.Kardantschik (talk) 11:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reason for direction of flight?[edit]

Do we currently have any information about why the perpetrators fled towards the Ukrainian border?

This strikes me as an odd direction for them to flee in, given that the high concentration of Russian military and security personnel stationed all along the border and closely monitoring its entire length (due to the ongoing war) would probably make it a very difficult border to sneak across. Presumably it would be much easier to sneak across other Russian borders, such as through the Caucuses or through Kazakhstan into Central Asia, etc.

This is one of several odd things about this attack, along with the fact that, as far as I know, this was the first time that an ISIS terror attack was carried out by paid mercenaries instead of religious fanatics, and they fled, ditched their weapons, and ultimately surrendered alive, rather than fighting to the death. Completely different than other previous ISIS attacks. Also, the amount of money they were reported to have been paid seems awfully low for contracting mass-murder for hire on this scale. -2003:CA:8717:D23E:F84F:774D:6A21:AFAA (talk) 00:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's irrelevant for Wikipedia. We're an Encyclopedia, not a international relations think-tank. We write what others say, we don't come up with our own conclusions. Q T C 00:55, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with OverlordQ about the irrelevancy; however, there are various sources that mention the terrorists as fleeing to Belarus instead of Ukraine, including Alexander Lukashenko: https://www.politico.eu/article/alexander-lukashenko-vladimir-putin-crocus-attack-moscow-terrorists-to-belarus-not-ukraine/ Staraction (talk | contribs) 00:53, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In other ISIS attacks there were also attackers who fled instead of fighting to the death, including the attacks in Paris and Brussels. If they can escape, they will try.
The fact that ISIS published video from inside the attack shows that there's for sure a link between them and the attackers. Russia said it had deactivated an ISIS cell 2 weeks before the attack, maybe this was a backup option? Pat2dv (talk) 02:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If one looks at the previous attacks by the same group, they do not have a specific method or signature. 2020 Kabul University attack was similar to this one. My very best wishes (talk) 03:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reason for direction of flight: Vasyl Malyuk. The Russian investigators are not fishing in cloudy waters, they are guided by specific facts derived from the forensic examination of the cell phones of the four main suspects, which are in the possession of the authorities. One of these phones was recovered at the crime scene, and the data contained on this phone was used by security officials to track the suspects as they drove out of Moscow, toward Ukraine. Telephone numbers contained on the recovered phone allowed to zero in on the remaining phones, and monitor phone calls made by the suspects in real time—including numerous calls to persons inside Ukraine who were working to create a gap in the Russian-Ukrainian border that the suspects could escape through. Concurrently, the four main suspects are have seen a judge and are in jail, the entire terrorist cell in Russia is successfully neutralised, and since the Crocus-attack 180 suspects/mercenaries were arrested in Turkey—nota bene a NATO country (read). The US is engaged in a proxy war with Russia in Ukraine and has used Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Daesh, the CIA cottage cheese industry of extremist groups to destabilize their enemies in the past. Including during a major insurgency against Russia in Chechnya in the 1990s. The US also used these groups in hopes of toppling the governments of Syria and Iraq. In 2015, Russia intervened militarily to prevent the fall of Syria to Daesh and other extremist groups. --91.54.11.182 (talk) 12:14, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"including numerous calls to persons inside Ukraine who were working to create a gap..." So, to whom they called? To Malyuk? And what did he respond? Did he "create a gap"? If so, this all needs to be documented and published in some RS. My very best wishes (talk) 16:00, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You understand and read Russian. Therefore you probably have the best RS. I live in Belgium and Germany − so many Russian web-sites (with fr, de, sp etc) are no longer available in the EU. I'll leave you a Belgian link: remarkable statements to journalists by Bortnikov, director of Russia’s Federal Security Service --93.211.213.174 (talk) 01:50, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a reliable source of information that can be used as a source on Wikipedia. Pat2dv (talk) 03:32, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was not saying that! But Gilbert Doctorow is the European Coordinator of American Committee for East–West Accord and worked with the late Stephen F. Cohen—both academics of high integrity and of very good reputation! No overheated journalists writing propaganda like all the other sources that have been used so far.--87.170.206.200 (talk) 01:18, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Russian sources are controlled by the government almost exclusively, as there is no free press - so, no. 2603:6080:21F0:6140:F883:5779:16E1:A00B (talk) 04:25, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no evidence of any "proxy war" - stick to what RS's have published. 2603:6080:21F0:6140:F883:5779:16E1:A00B (talk) 04:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes: @Pat2dv: Quote from today: "security officials are expanding upon their claims that Ukraine financed and directed the terror attack... crypto currency payments and other financial channels which were used by the Ukrainians, as the latest results of interrogations and further arrests have revealed. A substantial success reward is said to have awaited the assailants upon arrival in Kiev. ...Kremlin has demanded the hand-over of the head of Kiev’s Security Service (SSB), brigadier general Vasyl Malyuk." Cheers, --91.54.12.87 (talk) 22:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Malyuk made them angry [1]. Good. I am sure that is exactly what he wanted. My very best wishes (talk) 01:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that link! That disastrous interview he gave on the 25 March (the USA must be absolutely furious *radiosilence*) it is playing directly in the hands of the Russians. Here the cease and desist letter from The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation:
"One of the demands is to arrest head of the Security Service of Ukraine, Vasily Malyuk, who cynically admitted on March 25 that Ukraine was behind the bombing of the Crimean Bridge in October 2022 and revealed details of the organisation of other attacks in the Russian Federation.
...
The fight against international terrorism is the responsibility of every state. The Russian side demands that the Kiev regime immediately cease any support for terrorist activities, extradite the perpetrators and compensate for the damage caused to the victims. Ukraine’s violation of its obligations under the antiterrorist conventions will entail international legal liability." → here → Cease, desist and pay on 31 March 2024.
Soft spoken and erudite Alastair Crooke makes a important point about the British taking the lead role in the Crocus attack: Former British Diplomat: Crocus Concert Attack Is a Turning Point, Judge Napolitano - Judging Freedom, 1. April 2024. Cheers, --91.54.19.72 (talk) 08:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You mentioned Terrorist Financing Convention. OK, but it is Russia that was found guilty of violating this convention by international court [2]. As about the claim by the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs [3], this is pure propaganda, but it does work, at least in Russia. My very best wishes (talk) 15:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What I mentioned was: The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued ultimatum to Ukraine to extradite terrorists. --87.170.195.89 (talk) 23:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Burisma / Cofer Black, former director of the CIA's Terrorism Mission Center, implicated: [https://www.barrons.com/news/russia-opens-financing-terrorism-probe-implicating-western-countries-57ed6aa2 Russia Opens 'Financing Terrorism' Probe Implicating Western Countries], Barron's, 9 April 2024 --93.211.215.49 (talk) 13:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most were poisoned by carbon monoxide[edit]

Are there statistics on causes of death? Telegram channels spread the information that only a few dozen people died from bullet wounds, most were poisoned by carbon monoxide. 91.210.251.11 (talk) 08:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What are your reliable sources for that claim? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One example is the article in iStories, last paragraph[1] --91.210.251.11 (talk) 09:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it says that most people died from asphyxiation by the smoke, rather than from gunshot wounds. But main news (also mentioned in this ref, but came from WaPo [4]) are different: it appears that FSB has received information on March 6 that the attack will happen specifically in the Crocus City Hall and still apparently did nothing. One of the explanations: the warning for the attack was to happen during next few days (on March 8), but the terrorists saw the increased security in the Hall and decided do it later. Meanwhile, Putin not seeing thee attack during next few days, decided that the warning was a provocation. This is strange because the warning also came from independent sources in Iran. Unfortunately, this WaPo article is behind paywall. My very best wishes (talk) 21:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New info[edit]

By the power of archive.is, it is no longer paywalled: https://archive.is/NxQ4y CommissarDoggoTalk? 21:33, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Just to summarize basic facts:
  1. Russia has accepted information on the future terrorism attacked by the same ISIS-K from the United States in the past. As a result, two planned large-scale terrorist attacs were prevented in St. Petersburg, in 2017 and 2019 [5]. It says "Federal Security Service, or FSB, had detained seven members of what officials identified as Islamic State cells. The suspects had been planning a suicide bombing this weekend in Kazan Cathedral, a St. Petersburg landmark located on Nevsky Prospect, its main thoroughfare."
  2. USA informed Russia about an attack by ISIS-K on a synagogue Moscow, and it was successfully prevented by the FSB on March 7, this year. [6]
  3. Specifically the Crocus City Hall staff was warned on March 7 about the imminent ISIS-K attack. Islam Khalilov, 15, working in the concert hall’s coat check on the night of the attack, said that Crocus staff had been told about the possibility of a terrorist attack, not long after the March 7 public warning. “We were warned there could be terrorist attacks and we were instructed in what to do and where to take people” [7]
  4. "Putin publicly ridiculed terrorism warnings from what he deemed “a number of official Western structures” during a meeting with top FSB officials on March 19... Putin emphasized that the FSB’s most important job was in Ukraine, as part of what he euphemistically called Russia’s “special military operation.” Putin equated Ukrainian forces with terrorists and suggested that they posed a direct threat to Russia. “The neo-Nazi Kyiv regime has also switched to terrorist tactics,” Putin said, including “attempts to recruit perpetrators of subversive and terrorist attacks targeting critical infrastructure and public spaces in Russia.”
So, basically, Putin knew about it, but ordered FSB and other services do nothing because Ukraine needs to be blamed. And that is exactly what they did. So, that's why all numerous security services in the Hall and around did nothing. Unless they even helped terrorists to do their "job", as some commenters on YouTube suggested. I should say though that people in Russia do believe the "terract" was a Ukrainian (and USA) job. My very best wishes (talk) 23:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More here [8],
  1. Islam Khalilov told Russian media: “We were warned a week ago that there might be attacks. There was training. They told us what to do, where to lead people. I was ready for it in principle. That week there were the toughest checks, with dogs.”
  2. But "It remains unclear why security was loosened again. Russian officials — and pro-Kremlin news outlets — have steered clear of the question, instead focusing on blaming Ukraine and the West." My very best wishes (talk) 23:22, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All of that should be included to the page. My very best wishes (talk) 23:40, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Спецслужбы США знали, что террористы планируют напасть именно на «Крокус», и сказали об этом ФСБ еще 6 марта" (in Russian). iStories. 2024-04-03. Retrieved 2024-04-03.

Personal information really needed?[edit]

I find it troubling to see personal information about "suspected"/"alleged" people on Wikipedia.
Is that really necessary or even useful?
Shouldn't that be at least postponed until their conviction? Florian Finke (talk) 16:05, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The term "alleged" or "suspected" is appropriate if there is sufficent evidence to support the allegation from reliable sources. One could be involved in a crime but be found to be "not guilty", but this does not mean that they were not involved. Editors should not be reckless in adding information to an article but it is approriate to add information about suspects as it is relevant and important information to the article. Jurisdicta (talk) 21:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are right that someone can be involved in a crime but not found guilty, right.
But while where the suspects lived and their affiliations may be relevant I don't really see the relevance of the names to understand this article. There is also no link to other Wikipedia articles with their names AFAIK.
Still, thank you a lot for your response. Florian Finke (talk) 19:07, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excessive citations in infobox[edit]

I have removed all citations in the infobox for the perpetrator (most seem to accept this was IS-K, even if Putin is trying to cast doubt on the motive of Islamic extremism). Leaving a comment here per the hidden text on this article, if others disagree with me feel free to revert and discuss. GnocchiFan (talk) 08:05, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Burisma[edit]

Please up date and add:

On 9. April 2024 the Investigative Committee opened a criminal case on the suspected involvement of Western officials in terrorism financing by senior officials of the United States and NATO countries. The Investigative Committee announced it found that funds received through commercial organizations, in particular, the Ukrainian-based oil and gas company Burisma, have been used to carry out terrorist acts.

Sources:

93.211.215.49 (talk) 13:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is this investigation tied to the Crocus City Hall attack directly? 2 of the articles mention the attack in passing but this Investigation Committee don't seem to describe that their investigation is tied to the attack. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 02:03, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weapon[edit]

Please indicate which weapon the attackers used. The information is publicly available:

  • the Soviet AK-74 (1974–present),
  • the Russian AK-74M (1991–present),
  • the Russian AK-12 (2018–present), which the Russian military sells on the black market for $300

https://www.currenttime.tv/a/napadavshie-na-krokus-strelyali-v-lyudey-iz-shtatnogo-oruzhiya-rossiyskih-voennyh-kak-ono-k-nim-popalo/32909117.html 91.210.248.218 (talk) 20:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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